Thursday, March 06, 2008

Revenge for Mughniya in Jerusalem?

Map of Jerusalem (ArcIMS), Qiryat Moshe in orange

According to Ha'aretz, Hizbullah flagship station Al Manar reported that the "Liberators of the Galilee - Shaheed Imad Mughniya Group" took responsibility for the shooting which occurred hours ago at the Merkaz ha-Rav Yeshiva in Jerusalem. Needless to say, the authenticity of this claim is highly suspect. It is extremely unlikely that the perpetrators of the attack, which has so far claimed the lives of eight, are Lebanese or directly affiliated with Hizbullah. However, they may have been Palestinians recruited by Hizbullah handlers or sympathizers. To be sure, retaliation for the assassination of Mughniya in Damascus was expected around this time.

The shooting at Merkaz ha-Rav is the worst terrorist attack that Jerusalem has seen for quite some time. The yeshiva is located in the west of the city, in Qiryat Moshe. It remains to be seen what route the terrorists took to reach the site, and where exactly they came from. I was surprised to hear that they may have infiltrated from East Jerusalem. But perhaps they took a more circuitous route.

At this point in time, it is still unclear how many attackers were involved, and what weapons they used. There are reports of one terrorist having fired an AK-47 for several "long minutes." One witness spoke of 500-600 rounds having been shot.

If the police and security forces release details of the origins of the attackers, we can be sure that there will be a major response by the IDF in Gaza or the West Bank. Tensions are already high after a roadside explosive device near the security fence around the Kisufim Crossing in Gaza destroyed an IDF jeep, killing one soldier (a Bedouin tracker). To me, that attack had all the marks of an attempted kidnapping.

33 comments:

The Arab Advocate said...

This blog which I just happened to stumble upon appears to be just another site filled with cheap Zionist propaganda.

Maybe the attack in occupied Jerusalem was in response to the Israeli Genocide in Gaza. How many children has Israel killed in Gaza the last few days alone? How many of them were babies? This is a natural and inevitable response.

Imad Moughniya, btw, never killed babies. That's what the terrorist state of Israel does. Your lies have become predictable, and only a select few in the US continue to believe them. The rest of the world sees Zionism for what it is, a racist, fascist ideology responsible for all the bloodshed of the last 60 years.

Only with the eradication of Zionism will Arabs and Jews be able to live together in peace like they have for centuries.

The solution is a single, democratic , secular Palestine from the river to the sea. If the Germans, Russians, Czechs, Poles, Ukrainians, Lithuanians, Hungarians, New Yorkers, and Floridians don't want that, then they should move back to their countries and homes.

The Arab Advocate said...

"kidnapping"? Wrong. A Zionist soldier would be ARRESTED, the Israeli occcupation army KIDNAPS. The owners of the land arrest trespassers and armed squatters. Stop lying.

Amos said...

At least he is willing to let the Swiss, Austrians, Slovaks, Rumanians, Argentinians, Australians, Canadians Iraqis, Persians, Yemenites, Syrians, Lebanese, Ethiopians, Moroccans, Tunisians, Algerians, Bukharians, and Indians stay.

The Arab Advocate said...

They should all leave if they cant live in a single democratic state. I pointed out a few examples. I assumed you would understand, but apparently not. Even with your additions the list is not exhausted.

Besides, the Zionsits argue amon themselves about who is a Jew. I mentioned the "Expensive,First-class Jews" that founded the Zionist state. They all came from Eastern Europe. The "cheaper second-class Jews" from the Arab world are free to leave also if they can't live in a single, secular state of Palestine. Nowhere is racism, and apartheid acceptable.

Rebecca said...

Please, Arab Advocate, leave off the rhetoric until the dead have at least been buried. Then we can get back to cheap shots and indefensible statements.

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Noah K said...

I wonder if there is any significance in that the target was a

"ישיבת הדגל של הציונות הדתית"

Probably not; I imagine these guys aren't making those kinds of distinctions.

Amos said...

I'm not sure, Noah. I think whoever planned this wanted the symbolic effect of targeting a yeshiva (any yeshiva), a place that people have seen as safe until now. It was also a relatively soft target but one in the Israeli heartland (at least geographically). The attacker must have known the target, though who knows if this was really so well-planned (some commentators are saying that it was).

None of the eyewitness reports mention that the terrorist was dressed as a religious person. He may have simply entered shooting from the beginning. There were reports that it was an AK-47, which I think a lot of people would have recognized quickly (hence realizing that this was not a soldier on leave or a security guard).

ariel said...

Do we have to go through this children's cliche hour again? What a couple of hacks. The first sounds like a pompous communist apparatchik, the second like a struggling b-movie scriptwriter.

Exhibit A: "Zionism's days are numbered. Every dead baby speeds up the inevitable collapse of your illegitimate murderous little entity." -- Arab Advocate. What is this person doing preaching to a bunch of unregenerates like us? This is advocacy of the most useless variety. It may also constitute the first time Hamas and I are likely to have the same reaction: sticks and stones...

Exhibit B: "What part of fuck off don't you get, you moron?" -- Anon. What is this lobbing of toothless obscenities from behind the cover of anonymity?

I thought this was a forum for discussion, not for spitting in one another's eyes. Can we please put an end to this?

AA, I expect you'll want to have the last word.

Anonymous said...

how can i if you delete what you dont like

AA

Nobody said...

The Arab Advocate said...

They should all leave if they cant live in a single democratic state. I pointed out a few examples. I assumed you would understand, but apparently not. Even with your additions the list is not exhausted.


the arabs of course just excel at living in a single democratic state .. for a start they should get at least one :D :D

Anonymous said...

Nobody,

stop lying. The Zionist entity is the only exclusivist, racist state in the region, and its founders are NOT even from the region. Remember? The Europeans who came to Palestine from Mitteleuropa and ethnically cleansed Palestine from its indigenous population in order to create a racist, exclusivist state. That never happened anywhere else in the Arab world.

Let the Paletsinians return to their homes. They have been generous enough to allow the European colonial settlers to remain. I wouldn't be so generous. I think they should go back home to Europe.

Israel is not a democracy. That lie has been exposed long ago. The issue is not whether an Arab state is Democratic, or authoritarian (and btw, I do not represent the Arab regimes, and I call for the overhtrow of every Arab regime). Many dictatorships exist all over the world. The Arab regimes are dictators, ruthless dictators, and illegitimate. Every single one.

The Zionist state however, does not only have an illegitimate government, but the entire nation-state, the territorial state is illegitimate. It has no right to exist. And again, its the only regime that was created on the ruins of an entire society.

Stop the lies. No more smokescreens. The Arab regimes you complain about are all lackeys of the West. We didnt' ask for them. They were installed by the same western powers that sponsor your little, murderous entity. Im sure you love Anwar Sadat, and King Hussein. Any Arab tyrant who collaborates with Zionism is "good", anti=Israel tyrants are "bad". Im familiar with the rhetoric and talking points.

Whoeer is in charge of this blog seems to be scared of me. Why delete my messages? Why delete only a few and leave others? To distort? to confuse? Why? Let people see them.

I am willing to debate any issue, but first you must
1) condemn violence
2)condemn Zionism
3)and condemn the apartheid regime.

Zionism is not a legitimate piont of view. Its like askign us to debate the merits of Nazism? And asking Jews to discuss the merits of Nazism. Unacceptable. Condemn zionism, racism, and violence, and lets work for a future where Arabs and Jews will live together in peace as we alwayd did BEFORE the cancer of Zionism.

Its in your interest more than mine. I assure you we Arabs will be in our homeland for eternity. Its only your presence that is in question. Time is running out.

Arab Advocate

Nobody said...

I am willing to debate any issue, but first you must
1) condemn violence
2)condemn Zionism
3)and condemn the apartheid regime.


but who invited you "to debate any issue here" ??? i did not .. neither amos did ... what kind of preconditions you set up for your participation in our debates ??? to start with, non one asked you to come here and take part in our debates ...

so you are not willing to debate any issue with us ??? not a big deal as far as i am concerned ... you are fee to go back where you came from ... maasalama

ariel said...

Here's part of what The Economist had to say in an article on the Jerusalem attack:

"The intifada and its aftermath have intensified the conflict between their sympathy for their brethren in the occupied territories and their loyalty to the state, causing Jewish Israelis to view them with suspicion. When thousands of Arab Israelis demonstrated against the carnage in Gaza earlier this week, a right-wing Israeli legislator, Effie Eitam, called it 'treachery'. He told Arab lawmakers who took part in the protest that 'the day will come when we will banish you from [the parliament] and from the national home . . . you should be expelled to Gaza.' That kind of inflammatory talk, though still the preserve of the far right, is slowly becoming more politically acceptable among more moderate Jewish Israelis."

To me, the fact that Arabs within Israel proper are resorting to these measures is a sign that Israel is doing something very wrong, although I can't quite say how or why I think that is. Anyway, I wanted to know if anyone had thoughts on how true the final sentence is.

Nobody said...

To me, the fact that Arabs within Israel proper are resorting to these measures is a sign that Israel is doing something very wrong, although I can't quite say how or why I think that is.

neither i have any idea why you should think that is ...

Anyway, I wanted to know if anyone had thoughts on how true the final sentence is.

the idea is generally right ... though i would not say that what is becoming the mainstream thinking is that kind of inflammatory talk ... i would say there is growing realization that israeli arabs are part of the world that lies across the border and this is where their loyalties and national aspirations belong ... i would call it awakening or shedding illusions ...

also people have been seeing for quite a time hamas and fatah supporters throwing each other off rooftops, torturing their opponents, shooting their kneecaps and other stuff ... there is a steadily growing influx of refugees fleeing darfur and they are bringing horrendous stories ... here and there you see in the news the aftermath of another truck loaded with two tons of explosives having been detonated in a shiite market in iraq or pakistan .... israelis see it and make conclusions ... the right conclusions i should say

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ariel said...

"Wait too long and you may have to go back to Prague, Budapest, Moscow, New York, or wherever else you came from" -- More hackneyed prose from AA.

Nobody,
I just don't buy this awakening and illusion shedding stuff. It is perfectly evident that different ethnicities can and do live together, even Arabs and Jews within Israel, so the current situation has been produced and is not eternal. Having said that I'm not so naive as to suppose that lefty goodwill alone is enough to reverse the current course of things. So, perhaps, you are right that for all intents and purposes it is no longer possible for Jews and Arabs to live together in Israel. But if that's your position, than what is the long-term solution? Are you talking about "transfer"? Isn't that the only logical conclusion of this line of thought?

Nobody said...

So, perhaps, you are right that for all intents and purposes it is no longer possible for Jews and Arabs to live together in Israel.

i did not say that ... it's more about a very uneasy co-existence ...

But if that's your position, than what is the long-term solution? Are you talking about "transfer"? Isn't that the only logical conclusion of this line of thought?

no ... but we don't have the long term solution right now ... in some situations you can only talk about damage control ...

but the situation is also extremely unstable and we dont have enough information to know for sure where the things are heading ... you should take into account that the arab world around us may explode and soon... in fact the arabs seem to be totally thrown off balance ... you dont want to take any chances in such situation ...

Anonymous said...

The "God's chosen" approach to politics is unacceptable. You talk about "transfer" as a euphemism for ethnic cleansing. Only in the Zionist state is ethnic cleansing considered a legitimate idea to be considered and debated. This shows just how bankrupt the underlying principles of your cancerous society really is. You will never be able to "transfer" the Palestinians out of Palestine as you did in 1948. In fact, the refugees will return to their lands whether you like it or not.

We do know where this is all "heading'. Its heading toward a single, free, secular Palestine. You can stay and live as equals, not as "gods chosen", or you can go back to where you came from.

Anonymous said...

When do we get to the part where you scream "anti-semitism"!!!!?? Im still waiting.

Nobody said...

Anonymous said...

When do we get to the part where you scream "anti-semitism"!!!!?? Im still waiting.


looks like it's not your lucky day, mate :D :D ... or maybe you should go on another try with that one about palestinian babies :D :D

ariel said...

Nobody,
I hear what you're saying about uneasiness, damage control, and no long-term solution being visible at the moment, but I still think the following quote of yours implies "transfer" fairly clearly: "i would say there is growing realization that israeli arabs are part of the world that lies across the border and this is where their loyalties and national aspirations belong ... i would call it awakening or shedding illusions." Especially the last line suggests that you think separation is the natural order of things. And your statement about not wanting to take any chances in such situations, while not totally unreasonable, has a pretty ominous ring to it (as I think you intended).

Anon (AA, I presume),
If I had intended "transfer" as a euphemism, I wouldn't have put it in quotes, thereby drawing attention to its use. I chose the term because it is more precise than "ethnic cleansing" which, after all, can be accomplished in any number of ways. If you would say something interesting I'd be glad to discuss, but in the likely absence of such an occasion, I'd like to register my advice for you to peddle your petty outrage elsewhere.

ariel said...

Nobody,
My reason for thinking that Israeli Arab terrorism is a sign of bad Israeli policy essentially originates with my belief that nationalism can be overcome or at least partially neutralized by state action. That is, while nothing could stop Palestinians within Israel from sympathizing with those in the Occupied Territories, much could have been done to reduce the chances of them becoming intimately involved in the conflict themselves. At both a symbolic and substantive level steps could have been taken (and probably still can) to allow Arabs within Israel to identify also, at least partly, with Israeli democracy. To my mind, given the strategic location of this population, it is these kinds of steps that would constitute not taking any chances.

Nobody said...

ariel said...

Nobody,
My reason for thinking that Israeli Arab terrorism is a sign of bad Israeli policy essentially originates with my belief that nationalism can be overcome or at least partially neutralized by state action.


and i used to think that suicide attacks are a special privilege reserved for israelis by muslim arabs and we have the worst of it ... i also used to think that it has its origin in the occupation, bad israeli policies or something like this ...

by then i saw iraq when on one single day hundreds of people can die and whole streets devastated by truck bombers and so i said: ok, that privilege was extended now to the shiites... but certainly after i saw iraq i realized that we have no idea about suicide bombings .. what we got here are child games ...

but then they switched to truck bombing moderate sunnis too and even sunni mosques ... and then they started packing trucks with chlorine canisters when attacking sunni targets just as they did when attacking shi'ites ...

people can think all kinds of things, ariel, but it's important to change one's views from time to time

Nobody said...

Nobody,
I hear what you're saying about uneasiness, damage control, and no long-term solution being visible at the moment, but I still think the following quote of yours implies "transfer" fairly clearly: "i would say there is growing realization that israeli arabs are part of the world that lies across the border and this is where their loyalties and national aspirations belong ...


i dont see how it implies transfer ...

And your statement about not wanting to take any chances in such situations, while not totally unreasonable, has a pretty ominous ring to it (as I think you intended).

ariel

some countries around us may stop to exist in the next decade .. syria for example .. yemen for sure .. lebanon may get another civil war ... i dont know if it's very ominous but if israel does not want to join them we should better be careful

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