Emmanuel Ringelblum ז"לToday, Jews in Israel and in the diaspora commemorate the millions who were murdered by the Nazis and their allies in the Second World War. In the United States, many synagogues and Jewish community centers will hold remembrance ceremonies and lectures tonight. In Israel, an official commemoration ceremony is held at Yad Vashem, the Holocaust memorial. At 10 am on Monday, a siren sounded for two minutes, and people stood silently to mark the day.
Yom ha-Shoah is usually observed on the 27th day of the Hebrew month of Nisan. Because that day fell on a Sunday this year, which means that the day of mourning would have begun Saturday night just before the conclusion of the Sabbath (in Jewish tradition, a day begins on the evening before), the observance was pushed to Nisan 28, 5767 (April 16, 2007).
If you want to take this opportunity to learn something about the Shoah, Yad Vashem has a new online exhibit on Emmanuel Ringelblum's "Oneg Shabbat" or, in Ashkenazi pronunciation, "Oyneg Shabbos" [lit., "pleasure of the Sabbath"] archive in the Warsaw Ghetto. Ringelblum (1900-1944) was a young Polish-Jewish historian, who devoted his time in the ghetto to systematically recording the trials, tribulations, and occasional triumphs of everyday life under the most cruel circumstances. He directed a large team of contributors, who secretly gathered material for the archive, and successfully hid most of its contents in milk canisters and metal crates, which were recovered after the war, in 1946.
A page from Ringelblum's diary. The first 1942 entry, from January 8-26, begins:
January 1942. The conditions for the refugees are simply unbearable. Because of the shortage of coals, they are freezing to death.
It must all be committed with not a single word omitted. And when the time comes - as it surely will - let the world read and know what the murderers have doneThe photographs are from Emmanuel Ringelblum, Ktavim fun Geto, Volume 1: Togbukh fun Varshever Geto, 1942-1939 (Warsaw, 1961). Thank you, Judy, for this gift.
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I recently received a link to a very moving recording obtained by NPR from the Smithsonian. Taped by a British reporter in April 1945 at Bergen-Belsen, shortly after its liberation, it preserves for posterity the voices of Jewish camp survivors singing "Hatikvah," which later became the anthem of the State of Israel. Note that they are singing an earlier version, which has slightly different lyrics in the second stanza. Thank you, Ms Dessen.---
In the English Wikipedia entry on Yom ha-Shoah, you can read the following gem:Most of the Jewish community consider the day a Jewish religious holiday. Non-Zionist Orthodox Jews do not, instead remembering the victims on days that were already days of mourning before the Holocaust, such as Tisha b'Av in the summer, and the Tenth of Tevet, in the winter. It deliberately ignores other victims of the Holocaust such as Gay people, Gypsies, the Mentally Ill, the Disabled or Easter Europeans sent to the Gas Chambers.It's amazing to me how even the commemoration of the Shoah can be turned into an attack on the Jewish people, along the old canard that the Jews are misanthropes who care only about their own suffering. I'm not going to get into how misleading and tendentious the second sentence is.
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Yad Vashem Council Chair Tommy Lapid, a former Israeli parliamentarian and minister, said thateven after the Holocaust we witnessed genocide in Biafra, Cambodia, Rwanda, and we must cry out against the genocide currently being committed in Darfur in Sudan.MK Ahmed Tibi (Ra'am-Ta'al) called the Holocaust "the greatest crime in the history of humanity," and condemned those who deny the Shoah (Ha'aretz).
Cross-posted from Genats-Lehayim.
29 comments:
The Palestinian movement led by the PLO has always expressed their condemnations for what happened to the Jews in Europe during ww2. One example that everyone should read is Yassir Arafat's (someone I stopped supporting immediately after Oslo because he should not have recognized the zionist entity) speech to the UN in 1974.
Furthermore, I refer you to all the OFFICIAL statements of PLO officials. The Palestinian movement has also always drawn a distinction between Zionism and Judaism, and has never attributed the monumental crimes of the Zionist colonial project in Palestine to the Jewish people or religion.
Furhtermore, the Palestinians would have welcomed those fleeing persecution from Europe as they welcomed the Armenians and Chechnyans before them. It would also not have been the first time the Jews fleeing persecution in Western Christiandom would find sanctuary among the Arabs and Muslims. Real historians, including Jewish historians (see Maimonides)will attest to this fact.
So as we all commemorate the victims of the holocaust (for me their not only Jews, but others also such as the Roma who were also singled out for persecution), lets remember it was a crime against humanity and not just Jews. Unless we see it this way we have missed the real lessons of the Holocaust.
Finally, this relates to the modern day conflict because of one single, simple reason which zionism continues to deny: The jews could have fled Europe without becoming oppressors themselves. When they left the shores of Europe they were refugees fleeing persecution, but when they arrived on the shores of Palestine they became colonial settlers using violence on a mass scale. It did not have to happen.
Why do you insist on the "right" to have a racist state? Why not allow the refugees to return? What is your position on the numerous racist Laws in Palestine today designed to maintain a racist apartheid regime. Stop exploting the victims of the holocaust to serve the zionist colonial project.
Just a quick correction (i.e., not a response to our friend, Z=R, the broken record). Maimonides was a philosopher, not a historian. He left Cordoba (Spain) in the wake of persecution by the Almohades, and eventually found refuge in Fez (Morocco). He also lived in the Holy Land and in Fustat (Egypt), where he died. Anti-Muslim polemicists like to emphasize that he fled Muslim persecution, while ignoring that he also found refuge in Arab lands; others gloss over the former fact. Jews also found refuge in the Ottoman empire after they were expelled from Spain in 1492 by Ferdinand and Isabella.
So you still do not want to say your position on the ethnic cleansing of Palestine in 1948? What about the racist laws in Israel today ? And the refusal to allow the return of the refugees?
Why are you incapable of responding to the heart of the issues?
Correction:
He also wrote history and is a source for many historians. Glad to hear you are admitting anti-Semitism is alien to the Arabs and Muslims, now you need to take the next step and stop using anti-Semitism to defend the racist Zionist project. Your making progress. Keep thinking.
LOL.
One day scholars will use you as a historical source, to show how delusional some people were at the beginning of the 21st century. That still wouldn't make you a historian.
No response still? Im not a broken record, but I insist on addressing the real issue. There is a conflict in Palestine between Isrealis and Arabs. This conflict started in 48 with the ethnic cleansing of Palestine and the establishment of a racist, exclusivist, Jewish state. This was achieved after the population was removed and replaced with a new settler population.
Can you respond to this reality? For how long do you think you can keep ignoring it?
I have been in the US for over 10 years and learned from AIPAC that you pick a few talking points and stick to them. I am using their tactics, but with one change.
Instead of making up a series of lies, I choose the truth for my talking points.
This problem can end, but only when this issue is addressed.
Can you engage me seriously? Can you respond? If not, you may continue to call me names, and attack me personally and imply I am anti-Semitic. You can also jump back and forth between thousands of years of history to confuse people, and you can also get your Lebanse likud allies to also throw up smokescreens about other problems in the world, but in Palestine the issue remains the colonization of Palestine.
You can ignore me, but Israel cannot ignore its past. It will haunt you forever, and you will never have peace before you address it.
"lets remember it was a crime against humanity and not just Jews. Unless we see it this way we have missed the real lessons of the Holocaust."
ah, of course you have a better understanding of the "lessons of the Holocaust" than the Jews themselves, who were the primary victims. this is why we regularly hear arabs wishing that Hitler had "finished the job".
aren't you also the one who wanted to see the Jews of Israel, as well as the Palestinians, Anihilated in a nuclear explosion?
Tuesday, April 17, 2007
Dear Amos,
I am surprised by your patience. Unless this website is there only to engage our staunchest anonymous enemies, do you really have to keep people nicknamed like Z=R on your blog? Do you think that I will be kept on line if I write to one of your Arab links with such a defamatory name? I don’t mind engaging my opponents but not when they keep in insulting me. Did you ever insult them? Your site is becoming annoying especially when the subject is the Holocaust. Is the Holocaust also a subject for arguments?
Shaul HaCohen
Shaul,
We've made it a policy, so far, to keep the comments section unmoderated. A number of people have complained about this recently, and I am starting to reconsider. For now, please bear with us, and just ignore these people.
Looking forward to hearing from you in the future, and thank you for reading.
Im quite surprised and dissapointed by the attacks on me. I do not understand what bothers you so much. Is it your inability to respond to reasoned, coherent, factually supported arguments?
If you prefer, you can easily find crazy Arabs willing to shout and scream anti-Semitic slogans. Every group has their fair share of kooks. I think what really bothers you is that I am not one of them. I am someone who is challenging you intellectually and you seem unable to engage. This is truly dissapointing especially from young, aspiring historians.
I CHALLENGE YOUR FALSE NARRATIVE.
It is no longer contested, even among many Israelis, that the impact of Zionism on the Palestinian people in the last 100 years includes: the expulsion of a majority of Palestinians from their lands and homes, the prevention of their return, and the subsequent confiscation of their property for the EXCLUSIVE use of Jews; imposing a military apartheid system on those Palestinians who remained in Israel from 48 untill 66, which since then has been relaxed to a civilian Jewish supremacist system of discrimination; and the military occupation and apartheid system imposed on the WB and Gaza strip and their population for the last 40 years as well as continued colonization of these occupied territories.
Secondly, the official position of the Palestinian movement has always been to NOT attribute the crimes of Zionism to the Jewish people and the Jewish religion which is a moral tradition that I respect along with Christianity and Islam although I am a secular atheist.
I thought I was sharing in your rememberance of the Holocaust. Im sorry, but I do not have to accept your "lessons" of that event. I am a human being and will draw my own lessons, and I believe we need to remember the evil human beings can do to each other, and thats why its an attack on humanity and not just the Jews. I also believe that the Roma were singled out for extermination and a higer percentage of them died. I am convinced my position is accurate and morally superior to yours.
Finally, if you think describing Zionism as a racist colonial project is "insulting" then you should think about how insulted the victims of Zionism feel when you deny the crimes of this movement.
As for "Amos patience", well, that made me laugh. In either case, Patience is a virtue.
There is no need to bann me. If you do not or cannot respond to me and would like to stop coming here then please just ask me not to come back and I will respect your wishes. Its your blog and I consider my visits here an opportunity for YOU to explain yourself and debate with the other side. Your inability to do so further proves the truth of our narrative. As a young aspiring Historian you need to get go of your ideological baggage to be succesful. If you cannot do so, then you should not bann me from here, but rather drop out of your PhD program.
Dear Z is R,
You've repeatedly emphasized your opposition to Antisemitism and to denial of the Holocaust in our comments. I appreciate your principled stance, although I should add that your repeated accusation that we somehow "cringe behind charges of Antisemitism" were completely false. You seem to have great difficulty reading people: you interpret the fact that they don't agree with your narrative of history as some kind of "guilty verdict" that proves that they are either "Lebanese Likudniks" or "Zionist racists".
In the end, our discussions and disagreements with you boil down to very different understandings of the same reality. You describe present-day Israel as an apartheid state and a "civilian Jewish supremacist system of discrimination." In my view, that characterization of Israel is utterly false and politically motivated. In a previous comment, you singled out everything from the Law of Return and the failure of Israel to allow the Palestinian refugees to return to their homes after 1948, to land expropriation laws as proof of Israel's inherent racism. In my view, the measures and laws that you denounce are rooted in a difficult context, such as Israel's need to absorb hundreds of thousands of Jewish immigrants and its very fragile and unstable situation in the post-1948 environment. To me, the Law of Return is a measure necessitated by the Jewish history and one that is designed to safeguard the collective rights of Jews and Israeli Jews to a secure homeland.
What bothers me the most about your rhetoric, however, is the way in which you bandy about the term Apartheid. I'm glad that you are at least careful enough not to label the position of Israel's Arab citizens as an Apartheid situation. Even you, appear to have realized that the comparison is hardly apt - people such as Benjamin Pogrund, who has lived in both South Africa and Israel, have written eloquently about this subject. Discrimination against Israel's Arab citizens is a regrettable fact, as regrettable as the prejudices faced by minorities in many other countries, including the EU, the US and Canada, not to mention the rest of the Middle East. On the other hand, the legal equality of Arabs citizens in Israel, and the important strides made by Arabs in Israel in politics, in government and in the private sector totally contradict the Apartheid lie. Furthermore, to denounce Israel as a supremacist state because of the discrimination faced by its Arab minority is to render that epithet completely meaningless. I don’t know if you read Hebrew, but a recent article by Ben Dror Yamini in Ma‘ariv (not my favourite paper) draws on economic indicators to make the case that the Arabs of 1948 / Israel’s Arab citizens are much better off, compared to the Jewish majority, than Arab and Muslim minority groups in Britain and France. My point is that if you go so far as to call Israel a supremacist state because of discrimination suffered by its Arab citizens, you risk making that label completely meaningless and you make it obvious that your “principled” stand against discrimination is rather selective. Even worse, because of your hyperbole, you make it much more difficult for people who actually care to address existing problems of discrimination in Israel in a constructive way.
The way in which you describe Israel’s military rule over certain parts of the West Bank is also problematic for similar reasons. Again, I would be the last to deny that the situation of the Palestinians is unfortunate and that the Israeli military presence in the West Bank (NOT the GAZA STRIP) is not benign. On the other hand, the measures Israel has taken in the past 7 years have to be understood against the backdrop of murderous terrorism. You accused me or Jeha of putting up smoke screens when we compared elements of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to other conflicts around the world. I would argue that this is an attempt to impose your anti-Israeli tunnel vision on this conflict, because the way in which it is playing itself out is certainly not unique, nor is it evidence of some ideologically-rooted evil Apartheid machine. Low-intensity, counter-insurgency warfare of the type waged by the Israeli security forces in the West Bank exacts a toll on civilians and results in restrictions on their movement. Suicide bombers who clandestinely move into other countries to blow themselves up cause those countries to put up barriers and to try to interdict them. You insist on sanctifying “resistance” and classifying it as legitimate. By the same token, I believe that a state’s efforts to attempt to protect its civilian population are legitimate.
I’d love to get into more specifics about a number of issues, so I suggest we take them up one at a time in the future (if you really want to hear my views about them). BTW, your claim that Arab property was expropriated by Israel for “the EXCLUSIVE use of Jews” is wrong. Read up on the military government – I suggest Hillel Cohen’s “Good Arabs” (should be available in English soon - in Hebrew its called 'Aravim Tovim) – and you will find that there were many incidents in which Arabs were re-settled on “abandoned lands” belonging to refugees that had fled Israel. I know from my own thesis research that this was also the case with many Bedouin tribes/families in the Negev/Naqb.
On a final note, I suggest that you let go of some of your own hasty assumptions and your rush to pidgeon-hole others before you advise them to drop out of their Ph.D. program. From your comments disparaging Amos and Jeha, it is quite apparent that you do not read people very well.
That’s all.
Oh my God. Please don't pretend that you have been victimized on this blog. Plenty of people have answered you, and yet you insist on repeating the same thing over and over again - regardless of what the original post is about. Since your first appearance on this blog, you have assumed that the people who post here believe in a certain ideology or narrative, asking us to scrutinize the beliefs that YOU ascribed to us. That's ridiculous and boring. I am simply not interested in the kind of debate you want to engage me in.
Statements such as the following, which you made in your latest comment, illustrate your modus operandi:
I am a human being and will draw my own lessons, and I believe we need to remember the evil human beings can do to each other, and thats why its an attack on humanity and not just the Jews. I also believe that the Roma were singled out for extermination and a higer percentage of them died. I am convinced my position is accurate and morally superior to yours.
Did anyone dispute that the Roma were singled out for extermination? It is who is racist. Your assumption seems to be that since we are Jewish, we believe that we are somehow superior to the rest of humanity.
You say the most ridiculous things about other people, whom you don't know, and then challenge them to defend the label you have pinned on them. I thought it was classic also how you responded to Jeha's arguments by calling him a "Lebanese Likudnik" and invoking Geagea.
Why are people insulted by your "zionism is racism" alias? Zionism is not a movement but a term that describes a number of very different ideological expressions of the Jewish desire for national self-determination in the modern period. Yes, there were and are people who call themselves Zionists who are racists. But this is equally true of Arab nationalists, or any other nationalists. To say that Zionism is inherently racist is an indefensible proposition, and indeed smacks of racism itself. It is like saying "Christianity is antisemitism." I think that any Christian would have a right to feel insulted by someone who made such a statement.
Anyway, I can already predict your response, so I fear this is just more piss in the wind. I am not going to respond to any of your ad hominem attacks. If you want to have a debate, please stick to the substance of the posts. No one here has shied away from that kind of debate. Or do you act the same way in real life, too? I mean, when you go to a party, before you talk to someone, do you force them to say "amen" to everyone of your political and moral positions?
No response? You lose.
To me, the Law of Return is a measure necessitated by the Jewish history and one that is designed to safeguard the collective rights of Jews and Israeli Jews to a secure homeland.
Thats why Zionism is racism. It is predicated on the assumption that Jews cannot live with anyone else and therefore must have their own little statelet somewhere. Its also the reason why Zionists collaborated with the Nazi regime. They both had the same goal, to rid Euruope of its Jews. We reject this racist premise of Zionism and insist that Jews and Arabs can live together in peace and equality. But this will only happen when Zionism is eradicated. Its not a "national liberation movement", which is a silly notion applied to many nationalities of people in different parts of the world speaking a different language. Zionism is settler-colonial movement that had at its only goal the colonization of Palestine. Zionists themselves in the first few decades NEVER described the movement as a "national liberation". I take them at their own words.
You simply cannot ethnically cleanse an entire country to make room for a racist, exclusivist state and then claim to be a democracy. Thats utterly absurd. And no, I do not have to show any understanding for the need to have a racist exclusive state.
The continued denial of the ethnic cleansing of Palestine, and your clinging to a false narrative in the face of overwhelming emperical, historical evidence shows we are still a long way from a solution.
I do speak Hebrew and I challenge all of you to a debate. You can choose to have the debate in English, Arabic, Hebrew, Russian, French, or Spanish. I will use whatever language you want. I will also agree to come to Berkely which is only a few hours drive for me. And Im wiling to debate using only Zionist and Isreali sources.
Amos,
Thanks for the post. I recommend this old article by Baruch Kimmerling.
The two catastrophes
Israelis and Palestinians have both been marked by inconceivable tragedy. For both sides, understanding the other's memories is the first step toward moving beyond the past.
http://dir.salon.com/story/opinion/feature/2004/12/06/catastrophes/index.html
Not all narratives are equal. Furthermore, having a narrative is different than having a history. We do not recognize the Zionist narrative as legitimate and we never will. Its a series of lies and distortions and it is recognized as such everywhere in the world exept Israel and the American Bible Belt. The whole world cannot be wrong.
Yes we also have a narrative but our narrative is the truth, and here is where historical research comes into play. The kids on here would like to turn the Zionist conquest of Palestine into an academic debate. They will not be allowed to do so. Certain facts are undeniable and at some point people have to be able to let go of their delusions and myths before entering into a debate.
Many Israelis have begun to write about the lies surrounding Zionism past and Israels creation. In addition to Pappe, Avi Shlaim has also come a long way. Not enough yet, but I applaud them.
I am a patient person, but there is a limit to patience. You need to respond without any attacks on me personally.
I was first called an anti-Semite early on. When someone realized it won't work with me, they stopped.
I was then threatened with Nuclear holocaust. Someone wanted to drop a bomb on me and my family in Ramallah. They are in Ramallah because they were evicted from their home in Yaffa. An eastern European lives in my home now. When I told this person I am not afraid of your nukes and if you nuke me in Ramallah you take out TA, someone jumped and accused ME of calling for a nuclear holocaust.
Im really getting bored. If you want to debate, bring it on. If not then I am going to stop trying. Most of what I read here is better suited for the ignorant Americans who watch Fox News, but not a serious researcher.
You kids were raised by your parents on a series of lies and myths. None of your parents were in Palestine less than 70 years ago. They were colonial settlers with no connection to the land. They were not the descendants of the ancient Hebrews (thats propoganda not history), and they had no right to ethnically cleanse Palestine.
Its hard, but you have to accept the truth. Its your only chance to survive in Palestine, and I really want you to.
If you want to debate me, please leave me the date and time and place on Campus. I Know the Berkely Campus and I will meet you there.
I'll even buy you a cup of coffee.
If you prove yourself worthy you will hear from me and see me, if not, Shalom.
What I wonder, honestly, is why Mr. Z=R even bothers to post on this blog. I think he (or she) should set up his own blog, where people who agree with him will flock to read his screeds. It strikes me that he's not at all interested in dialogue - he's already decided what THE Truth is, it's just up to us poor benighted folks to figure out we should agree with him.
Anyway, good post as usual.
Wow, I can't believe this story. Is this for real? Any Brits here who care to comment:
Teachers drop the Holocaust to avoid offending Muslims
By LAURA CLARK - More by this author » Last updated at 11:58am on 2nd April 2007
Schools are dropping the Holocaust from history lessons to avoid offending Muslim pupils, a Governmentbacked study has revealed.
It found some teachers are reluctant to cover the atrocity for fear of upsetting students whose beliefs include Holocaust denial.
More....
* Teachers fear backlash over crackdown in the classroom
There is also resistance to tackling the 11th century Crusades - where Christians fought Muslim armies for control of Jerusalem - because lessons often contradict what is taught in local mosques.
The findings have prompted claims that some schools are using history 'as a vehicle for promoting political correctness'.
The study, funded by the Department for Education and Skills, looked into 'emotive and controversial' history teaching in primary and secondary schools.
It found some teachers are dropping courses covering the Holocaust at the earliest opportunity over fears Muslim pupils might express anti-Semitic and anti-Israel reactions in class.
The researchers gave the example of a secondary school in an unnamed northern city, which dropped the Holocaust as a subject for GCSE coursework.
The report said teachers feared confronting 'anti-Semitic sentiment and Holocaust denial among some Muslim pupils'.
It added: "In another department, the Holocaust was taught despite anti-Semitic sentiment among some pupils.
"But the same department deliberately avoided teaching the Crusades at Key Stage 3 (11- to 14-year-olds) because their balanced treatment of the topic would have challenged what was taught in some local mosques."
A third school found itself 'strongly challenged by some Christian parents for their treatment of the Arab-Israeli conflict-and the history of the state of Israel that did not accord with the teachings of their denomination'.
The report concluded: "In particular settings, teachers of history are unwilling to challenge highly contentious or charged versions of history in which pupils are steeped at home, in their community or in a place of worship."
But Chris McGovern, history education adviser to the former Tory government, said: "History is not a vehicle for promoting political correctness. Children must have access to knowledge of these controversial subjects, whether palatable or unpalatable."
The researchers also warned that a lack of subject knowledge among teachers - particularly at primary level - was leading to history being taught in a 'shallow way leading to routine and superficial learning'.
Lessons in difficult topics were too often 'bland, simplistic and unproblematic' and bored pupils.
Amos, John,
There is little to discuss, especially since Anon/Z=R have little to offer but name calling and insults.
I recognize this type of rhetoric from another era. The days of this "Black Arabism" are over, but its remnants will not leave without a fight. The interests of its tenets is not necessarily in fighting Israel, but rather to usurp the Palestinian cause to justify the continuation of the regimes that rule in our 21st Century Arab version of the dark ages.
You might as well copy/paste previous postings, you will end up with the same recycled waste.
There was no ethnic cleaning in 1948. A lot of Arabs stayed in Israel and the rest of Pal. There was an ethnic cleaning of 100% of Jews from the non Jewish Pal. 99% Egypt, 99% Leb. 99% Tunisia ect. ect.. Any arab that talk about ethnic cleaning has to account for that. But when it suit the Pal. they represent all Arabs and all Muslims and when it does not suit them they run a separate account like the present jerk, the Ottoman empire was not Arab ask Ata Turk. They settled Chechen, Mugrabies, Jews ect inspite of the Arabs. (the Chechen and the Arabs killed as many Armenians as the Turks, but here again our lier is living in a make belive world). Arab efendies buying Armenian girls by the 12, ask the old Armenian. I did not threatened this jerk with A war (Nuclean Olocus). I told him that 1) he want war so he should say so. 2) any war in 2007 may turn into an A war. This did not fit his world picture so he claim that he is being threatened, by the facts of life!. He wants to live in a world of his terms. This is a clear pathological sign. He claims to speak 5-8 languages but he live in a monotithic all black all white world. i.e. My parents lived here for the last 500 years. He knows it but keep talking about Russia. Most Jews in Israel were born in Israel or in Asia or Africa, yet he, a bigot, demagouge racist lie and lie and lie again and claim and realy belive in his lie (pathology agan !)that they came from Europe, it is not a fact it is a lie. Yes we select our immigrants like any other country. Norway, USA, Saudi Arabia, India. What is a normal political behaviour for any Arab country is not accepted for Jewish Israel. Therefore he is a racist bigot. All but all 100% of the laws of Israel that this person cited were copied from Arab laws. We know that the Arabs are perfect. Thus their laws are perfect so we tried to copy them, not very sucessfully, because Zionist Israel is the only political entity in the ME without a capital punishment, this is the ultimate proof of unsuitability. Property laws, land laws, wakaf laws ect, absent persons property laws, freedom of movement laws, Military zones and Military laws, every single law that he cite to demonstrate his pathological claims was copied from an Arab country.For example the Iraqi, Egyptian, Syrian laws as regard to property of persons who left the country. Or citizeship of persons who left the country. For example, he knows it, the selling of land to a Jew is a capital punishment crime in Jordan, this we did not copy, because we are racists and do not wish to immitate the enlightened Arabs. For example the naturalization laws of the Arab Emirate and Saudi Arabia were also copied with ammendations by Israel. ect ect ect. If he has problems with these laws please go to the original formulators. By definition accepting a certain human trait for one group but claiming it is crime for another is bigotry, racism and when it is associated with one dreck mind it is pathological. Amos please clean this blog.
I have been much more than generous and patient with my time, but it seems to be a waste of time.
You are unable to debate, and simply resort to name calling.
Also, the Anonymous racist on here is allowed to post his anti-Arab rants and nobody is condemning him/her. Interesting.
I stand by all that I said, and it has gone UNCHALLENGED.
The attacks on Arabs (a people and culture) is tolerated, but when someone attacks Zionism (a racist idelogy)he is called a racist. Unfortunately this proves we still have a long way to go.
The only thing we know for sure is that Palestine will be liberated from the river to the sea, and the owners of the land will return. If you guys wake up, let go of your delusions, you will be allowed to stay in a democratic, secular state, but if you insist on your racist, apartheid, colonial enterprise you might be required to go back to Berlin, Moscow, and New York.
Shalom
p.s. You can keep the representative of the Lebanse Likud contingent on here. I think there is about 12 of them left in Lebanon somewhere.
Shalom
Rebecca,
The whole world has already decided what the truth is. Israel and the US are the only places where your lies and propoganda are actually taken seriously. Your continuing denial of the ethnic cleansing of Palestine amounts to racism and hate speech. I am interested in dialogue, but that does not mean I am willing to entertain Zionist propoganda as a legitmate point of view anymore than I consider Nazi's to have a legitmate point of view. The starting point for any dialogue is a clear condemnation of Zionism, fascism, and colonialism. You simply cannot take someone's home, throw them out, and then pretend to want peace. No. Sorry. Not while your still in the house and denying the real owners the right to return. Yet you claim a right of return for any Jew anywhere in the world knowing full well that the claim they are descendants of ancient Hebrews is bullshit. Wake up. Its not too late.
Z=R and Anonymous 6:27,
You are either willful liars or illiterate. Hazbani's comments are not racist. You have now slandered him several times. I will not allow this to continue. Your accusation that Hazbani called for a nuclear holocaust of the Arabs was a blatant distortion of what actually transpired in that conversation. It was you who called for a nuclear holocaust of both Jews and Arabs.
I am leaving your comment up here only to show your record of twisting the truth and making personal attacks on people.
Z is R: I'd be interested to know your response to the points raised by Hasbani. How is it that you aren't leading a campaign against discriminatory citizenship and property laws of other Middle Eastern countries? Why are you and your activist peers on campuses around the world not calling for disinvestment in discriminating Arab states?
Anon 12:50 p.m. As I said before, you seem not to know what dialogue is about. You say, "The starting point for any dialogue is a clear condemnation of Zionism, fascism, and colonialism." How is it a dialogue when I am told that right at the beginning I have to agree with you on every point? Also, I don't quite understand how you know what I think, since I haven't yet stated what I think about Israel, Palestinians, etc., I've only objected to your stubborn insistence that only you are right. As I said before, I don't know why you're infesting this site, except perhaps because you enjoy provoking people. Wouldn't it be more rewarding to start your own blog and attract people to it who actually agree with you?
I would like to comment on one point that was raised.
The Arab regimes who mistreated and/or expelled their Jewish population should be held responsible for their shameful actions. The Jews of the Middle East who suffered from those regimes have every right to demand an official and compensation.
But, the Palestinian are not responsible for the suffering of the Middle Eastern Jewry under the hands of oppressive regimes. The Palestinains are even victims of some of those regimes who manipulated the Palestinian cause and suffering for their own benefit.
Peace
Ok Sherif now we are talking.
First, often in this endless argument the fate of the Jews from Asia and Africa is used wrongly !! to claim that Israel is a racial polity. Then in the next sentence Israel is pictured as European Empire and the fact that most Jews=Zionists in Israel are from Asia and Africa is cleverly ommited. The fact is that neither arguments are true, Israel does not segregate against Jews from Asia and Africa, in any way less than the social segragations in all Arab countries, Talk about Syrian workers and Pal in Leb. And Sudanese= Abid in Egypt and Shia in Saudi A. And Israel is not a Colonial Empire, where is the mother country and the Capital of this Jewish Empire?
Second: The Pal. called the Arab nations in !!! and are still calling them in. In the same way that Jews are being called to suport Israel. It is always the other who is segragating between Jew and Zionist, an impossible trick often done, like in other selections, to cause harm, bodily or other. One can not run a double account, if you are in you are in. Once there were Zionists ( Young U. Avinery? so called Cananites?) who suggested: we will drop this Jewishness business, what will you, the Pal. do? Nothing was done. So now it is not between the Zionists and the Pal. but between Jew=Zionists and Arabs=Muslims. Never did PLO now Hamas and the rest of the Pal. organizations and the Hzb and the rest stopped bringing others into the game (what are the Hamas leaders doing in Syria). When did Azmi B. said that the intervention of Persia, Syria and the Hzb=Leb is detrimental to the fate of the Pal. and the Israeli Arabs? You can not run a double account. If Syria and Leb=Hzb are running the historical accounts of the Pal. the fate of the Jews from the two countries is in the account. Avoiding the lesson of arab=Muslim intervantion bring more problems. What you have said about the evils done to the Pal. by the Arab nations is now magnified million times more in Leb. A lot of Leb. blood was shed and is going to be shed for the sake of Persia, it is Per. who is now arming both sides in Iraq. and except for Junblat nobody is talking about it and he is called a traitor. Jew=Israel in most cases and in the minds of Milllions, the intelectual segragation does not work. As is the case with Kurds in all their countries, and the Druze in all their countries, and now the Turkonam brough Turkey into the game, and soon we will hear about the millions of Arabic speaking Persian. There is a connection Between the fate of the Jews in the Arab countris and the fate of the Pal. Another good reason to make Shalom soon.
As for the Racist.
1) All human beings and groups of such beings are by definition imperfect. This blog like all intelectual affairs has to with this exentialist problem. Perhaps, if it is at all possible, do something about this basic situation.
2) Claiming that a living person or a group is inherntly totaly perfect or totally imperfect is racialism. Here is the trick, the Racist, the out sider define who is a Jew. It is always the master who classify the slave, the untermench(by the way what are the roots of the Bath and Nasarism and how close are they to fashism).
3) So in order to evaluate such imperfections, unlike the Racist, we humble humans who are not absolutly perfect like the Racist have to work in shades of gray.
4) Ethnic cleaning is bad, well who practice more intensive ethnic cleaning or more total cleaning? Egypt and Leb. toward Jews or Israel toward Arabs?
5) Political systems who fully exclude the others are bad ? well compare Israel and Saudi Arabia and Pakistan and other Arab countries.
6) new comers settling in other lands are bad, well compare Arabs in Sudan ( The Racist will claim that they were always there), Whites in Australia, Whites in the Americas, Muslims=Indonesians in timor, ect. to Jews and Arabs in Israel.
7) War is bad peace is good, most groups and individuals are inbetween in their acts and ideas. Here on this blog who is calling for war, eternal war till one side, already defined as perfectly evil, is exterminated and the other side, defined as absolutly perfect is totaly victorious. And these who are calling for peace, not even uncondional peace, like J are being vilified and minimized.
8) I could go like this for ever starting with the absurd Jebuside stories, evil ignorate absolute definitions of unexisting clear line between myth and history. The Master, like his teachers in Europe defining good and bad Jews ect. It is my opinion that the Racist is inflicted with a pathological mentality. Supreme pride, supreme sensativity, totlity vision of human affairs, A belive in his absolue intelectual Superiority (8-18 languages, and I cant even spell !). did some body say Bigot, Racist, Faschist?
Amos please clean this blog.
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